That was a tasty piece, my friend. Well written. Been having this sentiment for years now. Nietzsche has definitely articulated a lot for me about what I’ve been seeing. Glad you quoted him here.
Always glad to see I sparked something, it was interesting reading your thoughts (and brief note: Erik with a 'k' rather than 'c' - it's a very common misspelling)
My cursory reading is that both pieces suffer from unclear definitions of what they are talking about. "Karen" for me has connotations of people who are unnecessarily trying to involve the police (a force of violence) in some petty dispute, trying to invoke the cops as Customer Service for anything that upsets them in life. Nazis still exist, if not the exact same ones in power in Germany in the 30s and 40s. "Woke" means one thing in African American lingo and another thing as a right-wing bogeyman for a largely imaginary left that they oppose.
Thanks for the comment Dan. In my reading of Hoel's piece, the "Karens" are synonymous with anybody who is so convinced of their "goodness" / moral superiority that they end up acting immorally / inhumanely. You're right correct re: the confusion of terms like "Nazi" and "fascist" and "woke," because the meaning of these words has become highly subjective, and what I argue is that when we use these terms, it's usually with moralistic sanctimony, which only perpetuates the very problem we are trying to fix.
The truth is that most black Americans are not woke; the vast majority are centrist, hence Biden not Sanders, and most black voters being against Defund the Police and other white-dominated leftist policies. Wokeism is majority wealthy white people. It’s not a bogeyman; it’s slowly destroying the Democratic Party. If Dems refuse to own that, they will continue to be owned by internal fracturing and external attacks. Dems refuse to listen to their voters. Great book to check out is liberal black Columbia professor John McWhorter’s “Woke Racism.” He also writes a column for the New York Times. Don’t believe everything MSNBC tells you about right/left dynamics. Doing your own research is crucial in our current moment, especially given the insane bias on both sides of the political spectrum.
Someone can tell you that "woke" has had a long meaning as African American slang for being conscious to reality, to injustice, as in, "stay woke," for decades. But you are using it in the contemporary sense popular among the American right wing (or John McWhorter, apparently). There's a funny process at work when vernacular gets twisted in this way, and those who've done the twisting are insistent that their newly invented meaning is the one true meaning. It makes a conversation very difficult to parse.
As for your assessment of contemporary American politics, it may be true that some white leftists are more enthusiastic for police and prison-industrial-complex abolition than some black moderates or conservatives. Even so most black people who do support the police want a very different version of the police than exists today (which may be impossible, but it's at least a debate). The realities of American policing and the great crisis of American society and its prisons on their present trajectory will continue to exist whatever the polls say people think about them. To try to use the word, if many people are not currently "woke" the task is to wake them up.
I understand your perspective, I really do. But the dead giveaway for me about where you get your info is the fact that you linked to VOX, which says everything. (It can’t get further to the left than that.) There are a lot of black intellectuals writing, thinking and talking about this the way I am. Again: Do you look at different angles or only one pov? What’s your news diet? That’s crucial.
But hey: I get it. It’s your view. We have different views. That doesn’t make either of us good/right or bad/wrong. We just have different views. I think that’s a good thing, that we can hold different views and survive without going crazy. Now if only the rest of the nation could do this...
Michael
P.S. if you’re open to it, there’s a really fascinating documentary called What Killed Michael Brown?, by Shelby Steel. If you’re open to different viewpoints you might check it out. And I haven’t found a more honest take on news and politics than The 5th Column right here on Substack; they critique everything and everyone not based on media bias or partisanship but based on history, facts, data, rational thought. (Shocking!!) Last comment: Re police killings by race and all that, the Washington Post has a database which is often cited. You’ll see right away that the numbers are very low where the media claims they’re astronomical.
Interesting piece, Samuel. I was surprised to see you write about something political since it seems you generally steer clear of that arena (not a bad call!). I agree with you that culturally and politically Americans have obviously picked sides. But I think much of this is also media-driven white noise. The truth is there’s a third way, which isn’t right or left: The side of Reality. Neither fringe seems have anything like a healthy relationship to facts, rational thought, critical thinking.
My Substack, for example--‘Sincere American Writing’--seeks to find the truth for truth’s sake, regardless of the dysfunctional left/right binary. It’s tough because in my opinion both sides are contributing to racism, ignorance, delusion, foolishness. My vote is: Instead of picking sides we should THINK. It’s not so much the binary left/right as the loss of good-faith honest intellectual debate that worries me. Polarization has become incredibly extreme. Neither side will take ownership. It’s what I’d call an ‘alcoholic’ political-historical moment we’re living in right now. Completely black and white.
Re ‘Karens’: I think the label is silly, as most contemporary labels are in the end. It seems to have no real meaning other than blaming others (the new norm). Here’s your definition: “What Hoel makes clear is that anybody can be a “Karen,” regardless of political affiliation, gender, creed, or ethnicity—“Karens” are simply self-righteous moralists who believe they are so fundamentally “good” that they must stop “evil” wherever they see it.”
Well. According to this definition, you know who the worst ‘Karens’ are: Woke people. And it’s woke people who created the ‘Karen’ label to begin with. Calling someone a ‘Karen’ is just another way of picking sides and keeping the chaos on high. It’s a dumb media term. The popularity of words like ‘fascism’ and ‘Naziism’ in contemporary times simply shows a lack of historical context and awareness. I do see tendencies of these words on both extremes. But tendencies aren’t the same as being the thing itself.
One final note: Kmele Foster of The 5th Column did a fantastic deep investigation of the Karen Central Park incident. Shocker: it was largely bullshit. The guy had attacked several people previously and had a sketchy reputation amongst other birders in the park. He also had attacked a younger black man not long before this. And she had a history of sexual assault. So, what we hear in mainstream media in 2020/2022 needs to be DEEPLY questioned. Here’s the Kmele link: https://www.commonsense.news/p/the-real-story-of-the-central-park
Re Nazis: Yes, I agree: It’s not so much a matter of good or evil; as discussed we all have some of both. Jung writes a lot about this with his ‘shadow’ side of human nature. Of course Nietzsche writes on this. I’m a Substack writer but also a book editor. As you know one of my clients was a former neo-Nazi who changed his life and became an anti-hate activist, Christian Picciolini. He isn’t an evil person; he was young, neglected and desperate to belong to a group. And that’s what I think drives most people’s behavior: group incentives. Tribalism, if you will. People throughout history--as you astutely noted--have done horrific things to one another. The people doing it rationalize their actions in order to belong. This is true on the extreme right and on the extreme left. In the end I don’t think far left and far right are that different. When you go far enough to the left you end up holding hands with the right. It just doesn’t look like that externally. Remember this: 14% of Sanders supporters in 2016 switched for Trump in the general election. That’s really fascinating.
Anyway, interesting, timely, well-written essay my friend.
Thanks for these words Michael. We're living in such a noisy moment dominated by the loudest voices, it's always worth remembering the very real people behind the labels. I think the term "woke" has also become largely pejorative, like "Karen," because nuance has no place at the Great Table of American Bickering.
I do think there are *very important* aspects to the "woke movement" that have unfortunately been buried under all of the virtue signalling (as I mention in the essay, even a simple consciousness of a non-binary approach to existence is, I think, incredibly valuable going forward). As Dan Watson pointed out in his comment up above, "woke" used to mean something different than what we think of now. I just learned--at least according to Wikipedia--that one of the first appearances of the term "woke" was in a 1946 song by Lead Belly, one of the great musicians in history: "I advise everybody, be a little careful when they go along through there – best stay woke, keep their eyes open."
In that context, I still agree with value of the term "woke." We really should leave the language for the poets. Politics seem to poison everything.
Interesting about Leadbelly! I understand your point. I think what’s the most challenging is that both sides talk about this mysterious, elusive cultural ‘conversation’ but the truth is there IS no conversation and hasn’t been since probably 2016/17. It’s degraded into simple mud-slinging. Either on the far right or far left it seems people’s thinking (if it can even be called that) has become completely gobbled up by tribalism, which of course is an evolutionary function and makes scientific sense. Substack, in my view, is perhaps one small step in the right direction towards civil, good faith dialogue. You are demonstrating that with your lovely piece.
Anyway: Thanks again for the wonderful essay and for getting a nice conversation going!
Awesome post, Samuel! I really liked your piece and had a similar reaction to Erik Hoel's excellent insights. I'm so tired of the nonsense that passes for political conversation in the US these days. Even the writing community is thoroughly infected with cancellations, posturing and all kinds of self righteous virtue signaling, often by the most privileged. I used to have political discussions on FB but I left it over two years ago because the tone and thought process became so narrow and shrill. I've had an essay brewing but have to find the right channel...
Thank you Reena! It's interesting to note how different the climate is in France ... there are certainly plenty of issues, but this notion that the very landscape of language has become an endless tundra covered in egg shells has thankfully not migrated across the pond just yet. The walls of FB have been burning with flame wars for years ... I genuinely do not know if genuine political discourse is possible right now for most Americans, mostly because everyone is so tightly wound up that the knee-jerk reactions triggered by any number of statements usually end in shortness of breath, the need for a tall glass of water, and a renewed conviction that the problem is only ever about the other side. I think we know where your brewing essay should land ...
Glad to hear France is keeping its head on this one, although absolutely they are blind in different ways, not to mention the stultified economic structures they have in place. But the US is actively exporting this nonsense everywhere. I even hear this line of thinking in India when I go back.
The problem however is bigger than simply loss of thoughtful discourse. The lack of questioning even in scientific fields e.g., inability to have a debate or even publish research that questions any kind of orthodoxy, the nexus between social media companies and government agencies which is now coming to light and the lack of diverse opinions in places like universities which should ideally be founts of debate is truly scary. I don't know where it's headed but I fear Rome is on a self-destructive path.
Reena: Exactly. This is the problem. It's easy (too easy, I think) to say "both sides are problematic" when the deeper issue is that Objective Reality itself is under attack from both sides. It's not about "picking sides." If I had to pick I'd pick neither. (Dem if pushed, I suppose.) Since there's no side to pick for most rational, thinking people, the solution seems to be to develop a healthy relationship to Reality. This doesn't require choosing a side. It requires only intellectual honesty, which sadly is increasingly rare these days. Like you said: Science itself is now under attack, and from both angles.
Nicely presented debated here, adding in a necessary philosophical element to complicate the superficiality of so much of what are (paradoxically?) the deep divisions and felt experiences of who and what is right and wrong today.
That was a tasty piece, my friend. Well written. Been having this sentiment for years now. Nietzsche has definitely articulated a lot for me about what I’ve been seeing. Glad you quoted him here.
Hot damn that was a fast response. I'll take you on my side of the line in the sand.
Always glad to see I sparked something, it was interesting reading your thoughts (and brief note: Erik with a 'k' rather than 'c' - it's a very common misspelling)
shite. duly noted & corrected. thanks for the inspiration.
My cursory reading is that both pieces suffer from unclear definitions of what they are talking about. "Karen" for me has connotations of people who are unnecessarily trying to involve the police (a force of violence) in some petty dispute, trying to invoke the cops as Customer Service for anything that upsets them in life. Nazis still exist, if not the exact same ones in power in Germany in the 30s and 40s. "Woke" means one thing in African American lingo and another thing as a right-wing bogeyman for a largely imaginary left that they oppose.
Thanks for the comment Dan. In my reading of Hoel's piece, the "Karens" are synonymous with anybody who is so convinced of their "goodness" / moral superiority that they end up acting immorally / inhumanely. You're right correct re: the confusion of terms like "Nazi" and "fascist" and "woke," because the meaning of these words has become highly subjective, and what I argue is that when we use these terms, it's usually with moralistic sanctimony, which only perpetuates the very problem we are trying to fix.
The truth is that most black Americans are not woke; the vast majority are centrist, hence Biden not Sanders, and most black voters being against Defund the Police and other white-dominated leftist policies. Wokeism is majority wealthy white people. It’s not a bogeyman; it’s slowly destroying the Democratic Party. If Dems refuse to own that, they will continue to be owned by internal fracturing and external attacks. Dems refuse to listen to their voters. Great book to check out is liberal black Columbia professor John McWhorter’s “Woke Racism.” He also writes a column for the New York Times. Don’t believe everything MSNBC tells you about right/left dynamics. Doing your own research is crucial in our current moment, especially given the insane bias on both sides of the political spectrum.
Someone can tell you that "woke" has had a long meaning as African American slang for being conscious to reality, to injustice, as in, "stay woke," for decades. But you are using it in the contemporary sense popular among the American right wing (or John McWhorter, apparently). There's a funny process at work when vernacular gets twisted in this way, and those who've done the twisting are insistent that their newly invented meaning is the one true meaning. It makes a conversation very difficult to parse.
https://www.vox.com/culture/21437879/stay-woke-wokeness-history-origin-evolution-controversy
As for your assessment of contemporary American politics, it may be true that some white leftists are more enthusiastic for police and prison-industrial-complex abolition than some black moderates or conservatives. Even so most black people who do support the police want a very different version of the police than exists today (which may be impossible, but it's at least a debate). The realities of American policing and the great crisis of American society and its prisons on their present trajectory will continue to exist whatever the polls say people think about them. To try to use the word, if many people are not currently "woke" the task is to wake them up.
I understand your perspective, I really do. But the dead giveaway for me about where you get your info is the fact that you linked to VOX, which says everything. (It can’t get further to the left than that.) There are a lot of black intellectuals writing, thinking and talking about this the way I am. Again: Do you look at different angles or only one pov? What’s your news diet? That’s crucial.
But hey: I get it. It’s your view. We have different views. That doesn’t make either of us good/right or bad/wrong. We just have different views. I think that’s a good thing, that we can hold different views and survive without going crazy. Now if only the rest of the nation could do this...
Michael
P.S. if you’re open to it, there’s a really fascinating documentary called What Killed Michael Brown?, by Shelby Steel. If you’re open to different viewpoints you might check it out. And I haven’t found a more honest take on news and politics than The 5th Column right here on Substack; they critique everything and everyone not based on media bias or partisanship but based on history, facts, data, rational thought. (Shocking!!) Last comment: Re police killings by race and all that, the Washington Post has a database which is often cited. You’ll see right away that the numbers are very low where the media claims they’re astronomical.
Nothing is to the left of Vox, a milquetoasty center-left "explainer" site? Karl Marx? Try out some Angela Davis https://collectiveliberation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Are_Prisons_Obsolete_Angela_Davis.pdf
Haha, ok fair enough, but they are defnitely not "center-left." VOX??? But anyway. Yadda yadda. I get it.
Hope is a verb mmmmmmmhhjmmmmm!!!! <3
Here's to verbing together.
Interesting piece, Samuel. I was surprised to see you write about something political since it seems you generally steer clear of that arena (not a bad call!). I agree with you that culturally and politically Americans have obviously picked sides. But I think much of this is also media-driven white noise. The truth is there’s a third way, which isn’t right or left: The side of Reality. Neither fringe seems have anything like a healthy relationship to facts, rational thought, critical thinking.
My Substack, for example--‘Sincere American Writing’--seeks to find the truth for truth’s sake, regardless of the dysfunctional left/right binary. It’s tough because in my opinion both sides are contributing to racism, ignorance, delusion, foolishness. My vote is: Instead of picking sides we should THINK. It’s not so much the binary left/right as the loss of good-faith honest intellectual debate that worries me. Polarization has become incredibly extreme. Neither side will take ownership. It’s what I’d call an ‘alcoholic’ political-historical moment we’re living in right now. Completely black and white.
Re ‘Karens’: I think the label is silly, as most contemporary labels are in the end. It seems to have no real meaning other than blaming others (the new norm). Here’s your definition: “What Hoel makes clear is that anybody can be a “Karen,” regardless of political affiliation, gender, creed, or ethnicity—“Karens” are simply self-righteous moralists who believe they are so fundamentally “good” that they must stop “evil” wherever they see it.”
Well. According to this definition, you know who the worst ‘Karens’ are: Woke people. And it’s woke people who created the ‘Karen’ label to begin with. Calling someone a ‘Karen’ is just another way of picking sides and keeping the chaos on high. It’s a dumb media term. The popularity of words like ‘fascism’ and ‘Naziism’ in contemporary times simply shows a lack of historical context and awareness. I do see tendencies of these words on both extremes. But tendencies aren’t the same as being the thing itself.
One final note: Kmele Foster of The 5th Column did a fantastic deep investigation of the Karen Central Park incident. Shocker: it was largely bullshit. The guy had attacked several people previously and had a sketchy reputation amongst other birders in the park. He also had attacked a younger black man not long before this. And she had a history of sexual assault. So, what we hear in mainstream media in 2020/2022 needs to be DEEPLY questioned. Here’s the Kmele link: https://www.commonsense.news/p/the-real-story-of-the-central-park
Re Nazis: Yes, I agree: It’s not so much a matter of good or evil; as discussed we all have some of both. Jung writes a lot about this with his ‘shadow’ side of human nature. Of course Nietzsche writes on this. I’m a Substack writer but also a book editor. As you know one of my clients was a former neo-Nazi who changed his life and became an anti-hate activist, Christian Picciolini. He isn’t an evil person; he was young, neglected and desperate to belong to a group. And that’s what I think drives most people’s behavior: group incentives. Tribalism, if you will. People throughout history--as you astutely noted--have done horrific things to one another. The people doing it rationalize their actions in order to belong. This is true on the extreme right and on the extreme left. In the end I don’t think far left and far right are that different. When you go far enough to the left you end up holding hands with the right. It just doesn’t look like that externally. Remember this: 14% of Sanders supporters in 2016 switched for Trump in the general election. That’s really fascinating.
Anyway, interesting, timely, well-written essay my friend.
Michael Mohr
‘Sincere American Writing’
https://michaelmohr.substack.com/
Thanks for these words Michael. We're living in such a noisy moment dominated by the loudest voices, it's always worth remembering the very real people behind the labels. I think the term "woke" has also become largely pejorative, like "Karen," because nuance has no place at the Great Table of American Bickering.
I do think there are *very important* aspects to the "woke movement" that have unfortunately been buried under all of the virtue signalling (as I mention in the essay, even a simple consciousness of a non-binary approach to existence is, I think, incredibly valuable going forward). As Dan Watson pointed out in his comment up above, "woke" used to mean something different than what we think of now. I just learned--at least according to Wikipedia--that one of the first appearances of the term "woke" was in a 1946 song by Lead Belly, one of the great musicians in history: "I advise everybody, be a little careful when they go along through there – best stay woke, keep their eyes open."
In that context, I still agree with value of the term "woke." We really should leave the language for the poets. Politics seem to poison everything.
Interesting about Leadbelly! I understand your point. I think what’s the most challenging is that both sides talk about this mysterious, elusive cultural ‘conversation’ but the truth is there IS no conversation and hasn’t been since probably 2016/17. It’s degraded into simple mud-slinging. Either on the far right or far left it seems people’s thinking (if it can even be called that) has become completely gobbled up by tribalism, which of course is an evolutionary function and makes scientific sense. Substack, in my view, is perhaps one small step in the right direction towards civil, good faith dialogue. You are demonstrating that with your lovely piece.
Anyway: Thanks again for the wonderful essay and for getting a nice conversation going!
Michael Mohr
https://michaelmohr.substack.com
Awesome post, Samuel! I really liked your piece and had a similar reaction to Erik Hoel's excellent insights. I'm so tired of the nonsense that passes for political conversation in the US these days. Even the writing community is thoroughly infected with cancellations, posturing and all kinds of self righteous virtue signaling, often by the most privileged. I used to have political discussions on FB but I left it over two years ago because the tone and thought process became so narrow and shrill. I've had an essay brewing but have to find the right channel...
Well said and agree, Reena!
Thank you Reena! It's interesting to note how different the climate is in France ... there are certainly plenty of issues, but this notion that the very landscape of language has become an endless tundra covered in egg shells has thankfully not migrated across the pond just yet. The walls of FB have been burning with flame wars for years ... I genuinely do not know if genuine political discourse is possible right now for most Americans, mostly because everyone is so tightly wound up that the knee-jerk reactions triggered by any number of statements usually end in shortness of breath, the need for a tall glass of water, and a renewed conviction that the problem is only ever about the other side. I think we know where your brewing essay should land ...
Glad to hear France is keeping its head on this one, although absolutely they are blind in different ways, not to mention the stultified economic structures they have in place. But the US is actively exporting this nonsense everywhere. I even hear this line of thinking in India when I go back.
The problem however is bigger than simply loss of thoughtful discourse. The lack of questioning even in scientific fields e.g., inability to have a debate or even publish research that questions any kind of orthodoxy, the nexus between social media companies and government agencies which is now coming to light and the lack of diverse opinions in places like universities which should ideally be founts of debate is truly scary. I don't know where it's headed but I fear Rome is on a self-destructive path.
Reena: Exactly. This is the problem. It's easy (too easy, I think) to say "both sides are problematic" when the deeper issue is that Objective Reality itself is under attack from both sides. It's not about "picking sides." If I had to pick I'd pick neither. (Dem if pushed, I suppose.) Since there's no side to pick for most rational, thinking people, the solution seems to be to develop a healthy relationship to Reality. This doesn't require choosing a side. It requires only intellectual honesty, which sadly is increasingly rare these days. Like you said: Science itself is now under attack, and from both angles.
Nicely presented debated here, adding in a necessary philosophical element to complicate the superficiality of so much of what are (paradoxically?) the deep divisions and felt experiences of who and what is right and wrong today.
Thanks friend. The louder the yelling gets, the more we've got to find a way to understand all those harsh whispers at the proverbial dinner table.
Superbly written. Glad to know my nihilism keeps me centered in the great culture wars.